How can survivors of childhood sexual-abuse find love and friendship as adults? This article is a transcript of a recorded conversation between Aria and Phoenix (pictured above, as a child). If you would prefer to listen to the audio-recording on which this transcript is based, you can download a zip file containing the original audio file by clicking here. The transcript below is lightly edited for legibility, and to add new information.

ARIA: Do you have any advice for people who are in a relationship with a survivor? Both in a friendship, or in a romantic relationship.

PHOENIX: Looking back on the relationships I’ve had, I think it’s quite possible that almost all of my relationships were with survivors of sexual abuse. The thing that made those relationships different from each other is that there were different levels of awareness, in me, that my partner had been abused. And there were different levels of awareness, in my partner, that they had been abused.

Statistically, one in three women are sexually abused before the age of 18, that’s a huge number of women. The numbers are probably very similar for men, they are just under-reported.

There is typically a perfect storm of love-and-dysfunction in male-female relationships. Because of the fallout from sexual abuse, many of us are in very unheathy relationships.

Because of the abuse I was subjected to, as a child, I often regarded my sexual desirability, or my need to have sex, as being a symbol of my self-worth. There was often a perfect-storm in relationships where I felt loved through sexual connection, and the partner who I was with felt awkward or uncomfortable having sex. So there was a perfect mess.

Making-love, which made me feel comforted, secure, connected, was often exactly the same thing that my partner felt confused, threatened, uncertain and insecure in doing. This is a dynamic that plays out in a lot of male-female relationships. Culturally, the male is led to believe that their self-worth is based on their propensity to have sex, while many women are healing from childhood sexual-abuse, and terrified by physical intimacy. It's a perfect mess.

I can remember relationships years ago, where I was very reluctant to accept that I had been sexually abused. It wasn’t something that I reflected on, or connected with. I was sold this idea by our culture: That somehow this idealized sexual-connection would bring me a sense of completeness and wholeness that was lacking in me. That seemed to be promised by the culture: This idea of a relationship or someone ‘saving’ me.

I remember this movie Jerry Maguire. The two lead characters are in an elevator together and there’s this deaf couple in the elevator and they sign to each other. Then Jerry Maguire asks the woman that he loves in the film, “What did they just say?”

And she replies, “They just said, ‘You complete me’.”

And in the film it’s depicted as this romantic-ideal. This idea that there is a missing part to each person and this other person can somehow fill-in or 'complete' this sense of absence. Which, in my experience, is a very dangerous idea. That said, Jerry Maguire is, overall, a great movie.

I think a stable-connection relies on each person being complete and wishing to share themselves, in that completeness, with another. However, the cultural ideology suggested very strongly to me that I needed to find someone to complete me.

ARIA: I would agree with that. For me, it felt less about sexuality and more about finding love. When I was thirteen or fourteen, I remember feeling — not that I even particularly wanted to be in a relationship — but this enormous pressure that a relationship was the thing that was always missing in my life: A relationship, or love. But I guess that feeling of something missing was because I didn't feel love as a child.

PHOENIX: Did you feel it had a big influence on you that there were loads of Disney characters singing stuff like, “Some day my prince will come.” This idea of this missing aspect that was a kind of knight in shining armour?

ARIA: Yes, definitely. I remember feeling like there was a lack. I remember going through a phase when I was a teenager where I thought, “This is the one thing that I am never going to be able to have. The one goal of finding a relationship.”

PHOENIX: Do you feel like our culture, in a general sense, wounds children to the point that they feel there is a deep-absence and then tries to sell that absence back to them as a product? As in, this romantic ideal.

ARIA: I think so, definitely. I feel like having "a relationship" brings a certain status as well. Because, as a teenager, I always felt this pressure. It felt like people would always ask me about relationships that I was having, and stuff like that. If you’re a victim of abuse, that whole topic is surrounded with anxiety.

PHOENIX: Talking about the impact the culture has on our expectations surrounding relationships, and the extent that it models, or creates, an ideal that we have to fulfill in our society: Have you ever seen the movie The Little Mermaid?

ARIA: Yes.

PHOENIX: I find this movie very interesting. It presents a very interesting-narrative which I think is massively-corrupted in the Disney retelling of it. However, the original fairytale narrative depicts a female being in a kind of magical-world under the sea, then she emerges into the world of men.

The mermaid is given legs, she is allowed to move around. But the condition under which she is allowed to move around in the world of men is that she cannot speak. For me, that seems like quite a strong metaphor for the ways in which the feminine has been suppressed in our society: The way in which the feminine was allowed to participate in the society of men as long as she was quiet.

But, in the Disney version, it’s quite a troubling story because it does imply there is this missing part to her and she has to find this male aspect, external to her.

Whereas, I feel that the problem in our society is that the aspect that many of us are looking for — whether male or female — our ‘divine feminine’ or ‘divine masculine’ aspect is not outside us; it’s inside us.

We’re seeking to fill a hole that is somewhere within our psyche, in other words: Our spiritual core. But we’re invited to find that missing piece outside of us, instead of inside of us. Do you think that’s accurate?

ARIA: The ideal state to be in is one where you feel comfortable and happy with yourself. It’s like that with a lot of areas of our life. We don’t need these things to complete us. You just need to be centred in yourself and all these other things are just external things. I think eventually a shift happens, where you’re not seeking these things to fill a hole, and you’re in a state of peace. Things will just come to you.

PHOENIX: It’s like Obi Wan tells Darth Vader in Star Wars, “The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.” For whatever reason, our reality works in a similar way. It does feel like, when we grab for things, they tend to disintegrate. But when we wait peacefully, and explore gently, they tend to be more likely to come our way.

I think there’s also a complexity in this idea, and that is: A survivor of abuse often feels like they have to be rigidly independent. That they can’t rely on anyone else. That they have to find their own way and they have to be self-sufficient in every sense. Because, from the very moment they were born, they were self-sufficient.

I feel like there’s a complex nuance here, and it is this: That, on one hand, it feels like a healthy, independent human being is whole and complete in themselves and does not seek desperately to find people to complete, stabilize, or complete them. However, some of those traits: Independence; stability; being alone, are also symptoms of social discomfort, or someone who has been very, very hurt.

For me, the way the system ideally should work is that a child is given unconditional love, support, independence, trust. Then, as a result, they learn to develop those qualities in themselves and then they are let go into the world as a complete human being.

The problem is that we have so many people that are deeply wounded. Huge numbers of us are walking around, essentially, with massive wounds in our sides, just pouring blood out everywhere. But because these wounds are psychic, they are not so easy to see; because they exist within the psyche. There are a lot of walking-wounded about the place. These people do need connection, they do need love. But the tricky balance is: To support and love a survivor without fostering a dependency.

It’s very dangerous, I think, to become the missing piece for a survivor of sexual abuse. I think that is the difficult line that you tread when you support, or love, someone who has experienced sexual abuse.

What do you feel about that delicate line between supporting and loving a survivor, versus becoming overwhelmed by their need to fill a hole in them with you? Have you had experiences of helping or supporting people who you felt have overstepped a boundary, in terms of overwhelming you with their needs?

ARIA: There was a friendship I had where, on the surface level, we had similar interests, but on a more unconscious level a dynamic was being repeated, linking back to my mother. The dynamic was: I felt like I wanted to help her, and make her see abuse that was happening.

I could see she was being hurt, based on a lot of things she was saying, a lot of warning signs; things she was talking about. The way she talked about her family.

I wanted to help her, to help her get through this, to help her get through her struggles. But what I didn’t see — and this is what I could not see with my mother because I was a child — is that she was very manipulative. Both my mother, and this friend, would use vulnerabilities, like saying how hurt they were, to get attention and to get love from me.

I just didn't realize that they were saying these things to manipulate me. In the end, it was a friendship where there weren’t enough boundaries. There were little things that I didn’t pick up on. She would come over to my house unannounced and expect me to help her with something. At the time I explained it to myself as, “Oh, that’s really spontaneous, that’s fine. That’s just how she is.”

I didn’t really feel like I had a choice. I felt sucked into it. It felt like I had to please her all the time, which was how it was with my mother as well. It ended really dangerously.

PHOENIX: Feel free to describe what happened if you want.

ARIA: As a kid, I was given no skills to identify dangerous people. So I have been ‘eaten’ by all these ‘wolves’ the whole time because I have no way to see that someone is a wolf.

That is precisely because both of my parents were wolves. Really angry wolves, and yet I had to completely suppress all the anger that I felt towards both of them and form some kind of sick connection.

The connection was sick, on their part, but normal on my part, because you have to be connected to your parents to survive. But, it means that you don’t see obvious things that are happening: If there is a wolf.

It was like that with this friend, in particular. Something really bad, really terrible, happened which, again, makes me feel a lot of shame. I feel, “How could I not see this?” I feel it’s my fault that I keep getting into these kind of relationships.

I expected it to be a platonic friendship, which is always my expectation. But then this horrible violence came out of it.

PHOENIX: I think, when a child is raised within a family with aggressive, abusive, sexually abusive people, then it’s very hard for them to find a new way of relating to people. There’s a phenomenon called The Compulsion to Repeat, which was identified by psychologists.

The Compulsion to Repeat is where we are drawn to situations in the present that resemble traumatic situations in the past. The idea being that we, unconsciously, seek to resolve those patterns of behaviour. The mind keeps compelling us to revisit and heal those traumas. But, very often, in seeking out the same type of relationship, we simply repeat the past. That is the very difficult thing about this process.

I think it’s very difficult for many survivors to acknowledge that, throughout their lives, they have been unconsciously-drawn to very damaging relationships. This is because the relationship model that was established for them — the ways in which they know how to relate — were dysfunctional. Because of the original abuse they experienced.

It’s very easy to fall, repeatedly, into the same pattern. However, I do not hold you responsible for that, and I think it’s unhealthy, although understandable, for you to hold yourself responsible for that.

Although, the dynamic plays out because one individual has been wounded and the other one, most likely, has been wounded too. The problem is that one, or both, friends seek, not to heal, and not to reflect, but to reenact and feel power through that reenactment. There’s a danger there. The fault does, however, lie with the aggressor.

It’s every individuals responsibility to reflect and understand their past, and not to repeat it.

ARIA: It was particularly difficult in my case, and maybe for other survivors. I agree there is a compulsion to repeat. I think I was seeing Vanessa as my mother and I wanted — instead of sexual abuse to be enacted — for me to tell her about the abuse I experienced and for it to stop.

I now see, and understand, this idea of The Compulsion To Repeat. With this friend, I wanted it to be unlike in the past, with my mother hurting me, and perpetrating sexual abuse on me. I wanted it to end differently. I wanted to be able to go to my friend and tell her what was happening, and for it to stop.

What made it hard, in my case, and for other survivors is that, because dissociation was the main way of surviving as a child, if something happens to you, you’re not even aware of it enough to defend yourself in any way, so you just go into this shutdown, freeze state.

PHOENIX: So you feel the friend you’re describing was sexually abused as a child and then, unconsciously, repeated that sexual abuse in her relationship with you?

ARIA: I don’t think it was unconscious. I think it was conscious. This is the thing, this is really important: I did not want to be in a friendship with someone who was going to abuse me. I had no sexual interest in her whatsoever, I just wanted a friendship. That was how I felt about it. I think, from her part: No. There was a conscious motive there. She prepared all these materials to bring with her to hurt me.

When someone makes the decision to act violently, then it’s a decision. It can’t be excused as some kind of unconscious repetition of something.

PHOENIX: People who abuse others should be fully held to account. I agree, based on knowing you and having heard your description of this experience in the past, I would say she was fully conscious of what she was doing. I’m curious, and perhaps it is hard for you to answer: Do you think she was conscious of that having been done to her as a child?

ARIA: No. This is the thing with most abusive people, I feel that if they were able to go back and feel what it felt like to be abused, to feel the pain and the helplessness, and all those things connected with that abuse, they would not be able to commit an act of violence. They would not be able to hurt someone else in that way, because they would have empathy for the victim.

In that moment of abuse, there is no empathy. There is no understanding of what that feels like for the victim.

PHOENIX: I agree. Aside from the pain and terror of actually experiencing this abuse, let's look at the psychodynamics of what is happening: Those who sexually abuse or violently attack other people are unconsciously repeating the original trauma they experienced. So, they are unconsciously repeating something that was done to them.

During this blind-repetition, the perpetrator is defusing the free-floating emotions they feel by casting themselves in the role of the aggressor, and casting someone else as the victim. The abuser gets to feel strong and powerful and they get to defuse their emotional 'capacitors', by vicariously forcing someone else to feel the emotions they should be feeling for themselves. That, in essence, is the cycle of trauma.

Those who were abused become abusers if they do not face the pain and fear and confusion of having been abused. Our society, largely, does not encourage people to face the original trauma. Our society is so deeply unconscious on this issue. You can see it being played out in the court systems. When someone attacks someone and is brought to court, the court does not acknowledge the fact that the person is most likely reenacting earlier abuse.

This does not excuse what they did. It does not mean they should get a lighter sentence for whatever they have done to someone else. But it does mean that there is a fundamental-problem here: For some reason our society had decided that people do things for no reason. It has decided that people, for absolutely no reason, attack other people.

I think this is a vast stupidity: To completely ignore the historical basis on which people behave in the ways that they do. It deeply puzzles me.

You don’t have to, but how would you feel about describing what it was that you experienced in terms of the abuse that you were subjected to by this individual? The value in doing it is that they rely on your silence. And I feel that whoever did it to them relied on their silence. I feel like it is time to break that cycle.

ARIA: It’s time to break that cycle and it’s time to not be ashamed because I haven’t done anything wrong. These things were done to me.

We went to the forest, collecting herbs. We had a really nice day. Then, there was a point where we were sat down. She took me to one side, into a different part of the forest. She tied my hands with rope and threatened me with a knife. She basically was raping me.

I had no control and no power to do anything to stop it. I feel like it’s important to say that there’s a strong link — and I think not many people are aware of it — between all these materials like ropes, and chains, and things like that. They are all often used to torture children. Then, they seem to come up again in a different form in ‘romantic’ relationships, or other sexual relations.

I find it particularly disturbing, as a survivor, because for me those thing just symbolize abuse and violence. In this friendship — well, I thought it was a platonic friendship — these objects were used to hurt me.

PHOENIX: I think it’s a very accurate observation. Because our society is so deeply unconscious of the most basic psychology, it does not understand that people often reenact, unconsciously, trauma they were subjected to.

This is the depth of societal unconsciousness. I feel like what I’m about to say is going to surprise some people — hopefully not those people who have any understanding of depth psychology. The entire S&M scene, the entire scene of sadomasochism, where people voluntarily tie other people up and subject them to pain, these people, without exception, are unconsciously-reenacting abuse they were subjected to as children.

I believe that unequivocally.

If anyone wishes to dispute that, I would happily sit with anyone, you can write into the podcast, anyone who participates in that behaviour, I would happily sit with them and have a conversation for an hour. I think it would be very likely that we would see through that process, that we would see through their compulsion to reenact those behaviours.

ARIA: What happened was one hundred per cent rape. There was no ambiguity in any way.

I think, with the S&M scene, the difficulty is that it appears to be consensual, in a way. It is different from what happened to me, in that way. But I still find S&M disturbing and it worries me to see that. Like you said, there’s a clear link there between reenactment and the past.

PHOENIX: My view on the S&M scene is that it is consensually-non-consensual. As in: The adult in the present, participating in it, has given consent. However, their consent was not based on a full awareness of their past.

So, in a sense, it is consensually-non-consensual. Because, had that person been fully aware of the reason why they feel compelled to enact these behaviours they would not repeat them. Typically the reason is that they were abused as children, using the very same objects that have become a fetish for them, because of associative conditioning.

Associative conditioning is where we unconsciously pair stimulus and response.

In other words, certain objects and ideas are paired with feelings. For example, if you associate your sexuality with a certain set of behaviours – a fetish — the question is: In which way, and why, have those behaviours been paired with sexuality?

Psychologists and neurologists say: What fires together; wires together. So, for example, if someone has a fetish surrounding being tied up. Then, the question would be: How did being tied up and sexuality become wired together in that human’s consciousness?

I don’t want this to sound threatening, or confusing, for anyone. I want to approach this topic with compassion and gentleness. But I believe that if anyone participates in this behaviour, I think the most important question to ask is: How did these things become associated? And if they did become associated through acts of violence in childhood, is it really consensual in adulthood to repeat those behaviours, while remaining unconscious of the original reason for those behaviours, which was abusive.

There are many, many people reenacting vague-pantomimes of what they were subjected to as children. I’m not sure that anyone would consent to that, given the original reason for that pairing of materials.

ARIA: I’m now going to ask Phoenix a few questions which might help some survivors in understanding more problems in relationships.

Are there any particular difficulties you faced in relationships?

PHOENIX: [Laughs] I would say relationships for me have been universally difficult. My foundational relationships with my parents set the tone for all my future relationships. I think that a lot of people dismiss Freud, but I think — despite the fact that he went off on some wild cocaine binge — initially, he had some amazingly enlightened theories.

It’s become a bit of cliche that a psychologist says, “Tell me about your parents.” But I feel like the key to so much of our behaviour is that original relationship.

I have, unconsciously, many times remodelled my relationship with my mother and father through my relationships. And that relationship was not a healthy one. It was one in which I was deeply hurt. So, I have often been drawn unconsciously into relationships where there was a wounded, but aggressive, female.

I often found myself trying to appease this wounded-female figure. Conversely, I felt very lost and without foundation in myself. So I would often look to someone else to support me. But I kept choosing people who were unable to do that. Plus, no one should really have to do that. That should have been done for me as a kid.

It’s only been in distancing myself from relationships for a while, and really building the foundations — so that I don’t feel lonely when I’m alone — that I am able to have authentic relationships. A relationship where I don’t need anything, and I’m not partnered with someone who needs anything. A place where I don’t feel controlled or disrespected.

ARIA: Can you describe the link between common problems survivors confront within relationships, and how these are linked to the abuse?

PHOENIX: Many of my behaviours in relationships were patterned after my mother’s behaviour. Not only was I attracted to people who, unconsciously on some level, replicated my mother’s distance and inability to connect deeply with me, but I also took on some of her behaviours myself.

Behaviours like becoming very vague and distant when I felt threatened or attacked. I also developed a habit, in childhood, of repressing my anger. This continued into adulthood. My mother did not repress her anger. I learned as a kid, because my mom was so violent — she literally beat me until I was unconscious — I learned not to express any strong emotions.

It’s very hard to be in a relationship if you’re not emotionally honest. But now that has changed for me. In acknowledging these things, in literally speaking these words, I have become much more connected to myself.

ARIA: Can we develop more compassion for ourselves when having difficulties in relationships?

PHOENIX: I’ve got a good formula for this that I developed over several years and the formula is that you imagine that you are your own parent. Except not the parent you had, but one that is kind, compassionate, and loving.

It has taken a while to be able to do this, but it means that, when I feel sad or confused, I don’t do what I used to do, and what my parents used to do, which is dismiss me or push me away.

Instead of dismissing myself, I imagine: What would I do if I was a kind parent? If I feel sad, I’ll take myself for a walk; I’ll read a book that I enjoy; I’ll make myself some tea. I’ll be more aware of my needs rather than getting angry at myself for feeling emotions that I don’t feel like I should be feeling.

As a kid, my emotions were heavily managed. This was because I was only allowed to express a small repertoire of emotions. If I got angry, then I was violently abused. If I got sad, I was pushed away. It’s taken me a while not to do those things to myself. It’s been a process of re-parenting. Many survivors will find huge benefit in being the best parent they can to themselves.

ARIA: How can people in society become more aware of the difficulties survivors face in relationships?

PHOENIX: So many people have been affected by sexual abuse. So many people are survivors. It's almost like asking the question: How can society better deal with relationships per-se?

The most beneficial thing society can do to become more aware of the needs of survivors is to understand that a huge number of society — who were also sexually abused — have become predators. They’ve become aggressors.

Some survivors have become, like you described, ‘lambs’. And I mean that in an affectionate sense. A lot of us are very gentle and caring and we are looking for affection. But we also attract those who are very aggressive and exploitative. The greatest gift that society can give survivors is to acknowledge how many members of society are aggressors.

Society should take steps to resolve that problem, and reflect on the ways in which society rewards us: Wealth; fame etc. These trophies are largely given to vampires.

We largely give our trophies in society to vampires; to those who have hoarded the most money; to those who have become such huge narcissists that they have attracted the most attention. We give trophies to these vampires.

I have no deep hatred for vampires. They are stuck in their own dynamic. But I think it would be really amazing if a few of the vampires who have done this to society could reflect, and take steps to acknowledge their role in this abuse dynamic.

ARIA: Can you explain the psychological-phenomena of displacement and how that can cause problems in relationships?

PHOENIX: Yes, the psychological process of displacement is where someone takes emotions and feelings that they have for one person and dis-places them on another person. A good, and typical, example of this is where someone had an abusive, aggressive father and then, simply because the partner resembles the male figure in some vague way, will displace all their feelings about their father onto their partner.

It also happens within families: One of the parents may be attacked at work by a boss who is angry and aggressive. They may then feel unable to stand up for themselves at work, The parent will then go home and displace these feelings of anger towards their boss onto a child.

Displacement is where you take the feelings that you feel for one person to another location, and then you dis-place those feelings onto that other person. It happens a lot in intimate relationships. It happens a lot to survivors. Often, those who have been violently, sexually abused, who feel unable to confront their father, or feel unable to confront their mother, will confront their partner for things that the partner has no power over, and is not responsible for.

It’s very, very common. A lot of anger and aggression in relationships is displaced anger towards the parents, expressed years later. This is because our society has such a strict taboo regarding speaking out against parents.

I have experienced this in the worst ways imaginable. I’ve seen very vividly how many different friends of mine have taken anger that should have been directed at their parents, and dis-placed it on me. Simply because I am willing to listen and understand.

This is something that partners of survivors — whether the partner is a survivor themselves or not — will encounter a lot. It’s not that any survivor is immune to this, but it’s very upsetting when finally you meet someone who you feel a depth and connection with and then they attack you.

The paradox of it is, that an attack of displacment from an intimate-partner often comes because of the intimacy, because of the love, because of the connection. It is only because that person feels safe to displace those feelings onto you that they do so. So, it’s another sad, but understandable, storm of love and dysfunction.

ARIA: Can you explain what projection is?

PHOENIX: Projection is not entirely dissimilar to displacement. But, instead of displacing the feelings you have for one person onto another person, you displace feelings that you feel in yourself onto someone else.

For example, if you feel angry, you might accuse your partner of being angry. It’s essentially this: Disowning emotions that you feel in yourself and placing them on someone else, and then attacking them in that other person.

It’s very, very educational and useful process for survivors, and partners of survivors, to be aware of these two processes, among others. That is ‘displacement’, which we discussed, and ‘projection’.

Disowning of emotions is a big problem, generally, in relationships. This is because so many people have been hurt. We’re not taught as kids to feel and process our own emotions and so, as adults, we’re wild lawn-sprinklers, pumping out different feelings in different directions and accusing other people of feeling them. It’s hard territory to navigate.

ARIA: Can you explain what transference is?

PHOENIX: Yes, transference is another psychological term and this often happens within the therapist-patient relationship, but it can also happen within intimate relationships because they also have a therapeutic element.

Transference is where you take the character and core essence of a person who — often — hurt you in the past. Then you mistake the person in the present for that person in the past.

A practical example of this in therapy would be when a patient begins to unconsciously react to the therapist as if the therapist is — for example — an abusive father figure. The ‘patient’ will begin to transfer all of the essential meaning of that person’s character and personality onto the therapist. But this can also happen in intimate relationships. It’s not entirely different from displacement. There is some crossover there.

Transference is essentially where you mistake, unconsciously, the person you are with in the present, for someone who deeply effected you in the past.

ARIA: What is narcissism and how does that play a role in relationships?

PHOENIX: Narcissism is a form of energy vampirism. What I recommend listeners have a look at Meredith Miller’s work on narcissism because she provides a much more substantial and interesting round-up of this topic that I can provide on this podcast. It’s an enormous topic.

Meredith Miller’s videos describe these individuals as narcissists, but this is just a more socially-acceptable term for 'energy vampire'. These are people who are so hurt that they need to grab energy and meaning from their interactions with other people; rather than provide energy for themselves. What surprises me is how much this dynamic echoes the mythological phenomenon of the vampire.

The ‘narcissist’ is a modern euphemism for the vampire. Except, whereas a vampire in the myths bites your neck and draws out the blood, the narcissist, in our reality, can’t literally do that. We have social conventions that typically prevent that.

However, energetically, narcissists can do the same thing and I highly recommend those videos. I think every sexual abuse survivor has, in essence, been bitten by a vampire, and perhaps several vampires.

Just as in the vampire myth, you have to take serious steps not to become a vampire yourself, or not to become victim to more vampires.

ARIA: What is triangulation and how does that effect relationships?

PHOENIX: Triangulation is a narcissistic tactic. It’s something that vampires metaphorically do to those that they feel like they have been ‘seen’ by. So, what a narcissist may do is: Triangulation.

Triangulation is where you tell one, or more, other people, something about another person in order to destabilize, confuse, or suppress that other person. The literary-metaphor that is used most by 'vampire hunters' describing this problem is that of the Flying Monkeys from the Wizard of Oz. Here the Wicked Witch of the East… West… - it’s always a bit of a mystery - sends out monkeys, flying monkeys, to attack Dorothy.

I speak about this with a sense of understanding, I do understand these vampires are very hurt, but what is happening is that the ‘vampire’, or the ‘narcissist’ or ‘abuser’ feels like they can disguise their attack on those they are abusing by sending a third-party to attack. This is, in essence, what triangulation is, or what this Flying Monkey technique is.

This can be done by spreading gossip, rumors, disinformation, or simply finding ways to attack and destabilize a person without attacking them directly. In other words: Vampires use triangulation to provoke two, or more, other people to abuse a person.

ARIA: What is the role of consent in relationships?

PHOENIX: Consent, as we all know at this point in history, is essential. It’s at the very core of every connection that we have. If there is no consent, there is no relationship, there is only abuse.

Let’s quickly look at the history of it: Until very recently in many countries it was not illegal to rape your wife. That’s unbelievable to me. Until recently in many countries it was not illegal to rape your wife. I’m talking about developed, western nations. That is shocking. So, we had a system where a certain legal status, as a man, gave you permission just to rape your wife whenever you wanted. There would be no consequence to that.

ARIA: What is the role of Hollywood-induced romantic delusion in the dysfunctional-structuring of modern relationships?

PHOENIX: There’s a big problem with the way in which our media, and film, and television depicts romantic relationships. It narratively-formulates these relationships in which, often, the female figure is lost, confused, and abandoned until she finds the male counterpart who ‘saves’ her.

This myth permeates fairy tales, it’s not necessarily a modern, Hollywood concoction. It’s something that pervade other forms of art that predate Hollywood by centuries. However, these earlier myths are more nuanced. They represent a realistic, literal-necessity.

The Hollywood formula mis-directs the audience, suggesting that they need to find the missing masculine or feminine aspect in a physical form; in a romantic partner. The earlier myths are more sophisticated: They explore the psychological imperative to find, within yourself as a human being, your masculine and feminine aspect, and to unite those aspects, in balance.

I was looking the other day in a ceremonial space at a very interesting symbol. The symbol was, I believe, the Star of David, although it obviously represents many other things in many other cultures. But the interesting thing about this symbol is that it, to me, looks like the divine feminine and the divine masculine combined.

The universal archetypal symbol for the divine feminine is a downward pointing triangle. The universal archetypal symbol for the divine masculine is an upward pointing triangle. If you overlap these two triangles it produces the Star of David, which is obviously used in many other religious context, and outside those contexts.

The symbols for me represents something very important, and that is the balance between the divine masculine and feminine. I think that many of these stories and fairytales, and very misguided Hollywood movies, do seek to present a truth. That truth is: There should be a balance between these aspects, between the feminine contemplative; feminine creativity; reflection; self-understanding, and the divine masculine aspect, not srictly ‘male’, but 'masculine' aspect of: Action.

I feel that when these two things are combined, when thoughtfulness and compassion is combined with action, then you have balance. When we have reconciled these aspects, our planet will be in a much better position.

That doesn’t mean looking for a Prince Charming. And it doesn’t mean looking for a maiden with long-hair in a big tower. It means finding, within yourself, this balance and taking ‘action’ with ‘compassion.’

ARIA: This idea that you need to look for someone else; as if people are just there to fulfill your needs. It’s just so wrong, this idea. People are sovereign in themselves. They’re not there to complete you.

At the same time, all humans need connection. All different types of connection as well. Not just romantic relationships. You can be so happy and secure in yourself if you have just a few good relationships. Even if these relationships are with yourself, or with nature. Then you can build from that.

Another question for Phoenix: The dictionary defines ‘slavery’ as the application of property law to humans. Is marriage slavery?

PHOENIX: Is marriage slavery? This is, for me, the big question. And also the most challenging one because I can imagine, as you were asking that question, so many listeners saying, “Arghhh!” They have some good reason why marriage isn’t slavery.

It works like this: Imagine there’s a big war, and hundreds of thousands of people go out to this war. There will be a certain percentage of people who come back from that war who say, “Man, war was great, I made all these friends, and there was camaraderie, and we felt like we were all working together, and we just stormed those battlefields, and it was amazing.”

I feel it is the same thing with marriage. There is a certain percentage of people who go into this marriage experience and have a really great time. But this is not because of the marriage, it’s because they were lucky that within a system that was corrupt — they had an unusual, good experience.

There are a lot of people who are very, very deeply hurt by this marriage experience, as with a war. And there’s also a certain percentage of people who were hurt but don’t really want to talk about it.

As with a war, when you ask, “How was the war?”
They’ll say, “Yeah, it was good. I don’t want to talk about it, it was good.”
“You don’t want to talk about it?"
“Yeah, it was good.”
“Mmmmm.”

For me, marriage is the same thing. The problem with marriage is that it is property ownership in disguise. The marriage vows clearly state, “I take this Man to be my lawful wedded husband, to have and to hold, from this day forth. Until death do us part.”

That is not entirely dissimilar to the wording of a contract connected to ownership of a house, or property. It’s very, very similar. The question here is: Can any relationship be authentic and loving if you are compelled to be in it? Can any relationship be authentic and loving if you are compelled to be in it, by law? I think: No.

Why tie yourself to something you love? If you love someone, you should trust them. And you should allow them to be free. Presumably, people love other people because of who they are. But so much of who they are is tied to their ability to be free and expressive.

Marriage feels like a good idea, just as it feels like a good idea to pick a beautiful flower and put it in a jar in a house. The problem is: As soon as you do that, the flower fades. The very thing that you sought to capture fades. The very freedom, the very excitement, the very dynamic that you sought to own is destroyed in the ownership.

At the crescendo of society’s mis-steps, the finale of this wrong-footed dance, within relationships, is marriage. It’s the point at which someone says, “I want to own what I love.”

ARIA: I agree that is the case in a lot of marriages. I feel that the marriage concept itself is problematic. I don’t think it’s right to want to own someone. But I think there are still — despite all this abuse and terrible things happening in the world — and these horrible structures — I feel like there are still good, and kind, people who would not enter into a marriage for those reasons. They wouldn’t enter into it to control someone else, or to want to own them. But more as an expression of their love, or to show commitment to someone. Which is a different reason.

PHOENIX: What does that mean to you, “commitment”?

ARIA: If you care for someone, then you’re there for them, for a long period of time. I feel that is maybe what — in the best sense — wants to be expressed in that ‘marriage’. That you’re there for someone. You’re in their life and you care for them for a longer period of time.

PHOENIX: I see what you’re saying. It sounds like — and correct me if I’m wrong — it sounds like you might be conflating marriage with intimate-connection. And, I’m not speaking out against intimate, long-term, connection. I’m speaking out against state-endorsed, legally-defined, long-term connection.

I’m questioning why we need documentation, or The State.

ARIA: I feel like there’s people out there who have not been hurt as much, or had more of a stable experience in their younger-years, and they are able to have a marriage relationship that isn’t a catastrophe.

PHOENIX: If that’s you, write to us. We’d love to speak to you. I think, probably, everybody would like to hear from those people. Where are you? I’m going to find you one day, you happily married people. Where are you? Where do you think they are? Have you seen one recently?

ARIA: [Laughs] I don’t know any married people.

PHOENIX: Well, I know some married people who are happy, but I think they got married slightly ironically. I don’t think it was necessary. I think they wanted a party or something.

ARIA: That’s what I mean.

PHOENIX: I don’t know anyone who is seriously married, who took it all seriously, who is happy.

ARIA: Yes. Definitely. Especially not if it’s the goal of your life or something.

PHOENIX: If you’re happily married — and I mean really, don’t lie to us, really — then email us. Explain how. Explain how you found love within the rigid structures of The State.

Thank you for joining me Aria, and thank you for listening to us, listeners.